You are regarded by some as the most prepared presidential candidate Nigeria currently has. From the first time you tried in 1993 till date, what has changed in the Nigerian condition?
The world has become a smaller village because of technology. National economies have become integrated into the global economy. Socially and politically, governance in Nigeria has become more complex. There had been a drastic adjustment in the values and expectations of citizens in respect of what they want from their government. People have become more conscious of their rights and their insistence on service delivery is becoming more loud. Those things have changed. The challenges of security have become more daunting. The search for good leadership has, however, not changed. Democratic values have diminished. The electoral process has become more expensive because of the involvement of agencies whose personnel see an election as an opportunity to corruptly enrich themselves. Politics itself has become more expensive because of advancement in technology.
How will you tackle power supply, compared to what President Goodluck Jonathan is doing now?
I will diversify the energy mix by incorporating clean coal technology in the generation of small and medium Power plants and build captive power stations. I will develop the mini-hydro stations that are located across the nation. I will implement faithfully and with commitment the Gas to Power Master Plan drawn up in 2005 which emphasises the need for a secure and predictable gas supply to be made available to private investors in power generation. I will address the challenges confronting the power distribution companies and privatise the transmission system. I will make the power sector move investor-friendly by creating incentives. I will train a large number of technicians and engineers.
Is generating power from coal a viable option?
It is an option because technology has now brought a process where you can even clean the coal. That is why they call it clean coal. Over 90% of South Africa’s power comes from coal. The only thing is they are trying to clean the coal because there is a technology now that cleans it. So I don’t see anything wrong. For instance, the south-east could entirely depend on the coal deposit in Enugu and Abakaliki to generate their electricity. So also parts of the north-central, because the coal deposits in Kogi state are so substantial that you could use them and provide enough power for the north-central zone together with its hydro potential. They have small dams in Nasarawa, another one in Plateau. The Plateau one has been in existence. So what we need to do is to expand it because it supplies power to the whole of Plateau and you can extend it to other states. So there is potential for doing that. Not that we have not started… we commissioned international consultants to do that and they really gave us a good mix, and if we had gone by that mix in 2005 we would have attained sufficiency in power generation in the country, but unfortunately we abandoned that and went for gas, which is going to take a very long time.
Insecurity is perhaps the biggest challenge facing Nigeria today. What is this government getting wrong in trying to deal with it?
Lack of political will to tackle insecurity issues holistically. A defect is in the deployment of their security resources especially personnel. There is de-professionalisation of the security agencies by exposing them to duties and environment not consistent with their discipline. Not recognising that security is development and that it is only when a nation can manage its resources to provide the citizens with what they want and need that security can be guaranteed.
Do you subscribe to this notion that a single-term tenure will resolve a lot of crises in the system?
I do not believe that there is any problem with the four-year, two-term tenure stipulated in the constitution. Constitutional crises are raised only when people want to do a two and half or third term. We should just play by the rules.
Some of us believed that you had a fantastic relationship with President Obasanjo while both of you were in power but things went sour. What exactly went wrong?
I still have a good relationship with Baba but on certain occasions we defer on matters of principle and interpretation of facts. This is not unusual for two people who respect each other and have a joint mission to provide good leadership for this nation.
What exactly transpired at the PDP Convention in 2003 when you told the BBC that you had options to run against Obasanjo or be his running mate?
Yes. In 2003, the PDP governors wanted me to run against Obasanjo and I refused and insisted that I would rather be his running mate than to run against him.
President Umaru Musa Yar’Adua was like a brother to you, and your decision to challenge his victory in court in 2007 did not go down well with some members of the Yar’Adua circle, to which you belong. Did you make a mistake?
No, I did not make a mistake. I decided to challenge his victory and pursue it to the logical conclusion at the supreme court so that I could legitimize that victory especially when he had publicly admitted at his swearing-in that the process of his election could have been flawed. So the decision of the supreme court that upheld his victory makes that victory and his mandate quite legitimate. The legal process also deepened democracy and enriched the legal records.
What role did you play to break the impasse caused by Yar’Adua’s absence?
I did not play any major role and could not have played any except to pray for his speedy recovery. You will recall that most people were kept in the dark at that time.
Your decision to form the Northern Consensus Candidate Group in 2010 to challenge President Jonathan for the PDP ticket appeared to be an unhidden sectional agenda which many believe led to the division of Nigeria along ethnic and religious lines which we are still battling with today.
I think that there is a lot of misinformation about the whole idea of the consensus issues. I was not being positioned as a candidate of the north but a candidate of PDP from the north. The concept of consensus was promoted to reduce political tensions within the party as a whole and those who were willing and ready to subject themselves to negotiations submitted themselves to this process. I do not believe anything was wrong with trying to reduce the number of candidates that would be presented at the PDP primaries.
The electoral support of Jonathan in the north in the 2011 election does not show any evidence that the event of 2010 had created any division, ethnic or religious. You will agree that Nigeria’s division along ethnic and religious lines had been actively promoted in the last few years by the present administration and we now have more divisions along those cleavages than ever before.
One of the things that seem to be counting against you in APC is your frequent change of parties. Do you regret returning to PDP in 2010?
No, I have no regrets. And I should not have any. I was a founding member of the PDP. At a point, the PDP leadership became insensitive to the aspirations of party members who were being denied the right to participate in the activities of the party, particularly in the elections. I was virtually kicked out of the party because of my insistence that internal democracy within the party was critical to the survival of democracy. You will recall that I have always been an advocate of a two-party system because it gives people viable choice. I also co-founded the ACN which was supposed to be an alternative to PDP and provide a choice for Nigerians. ACN was not intended to be a platform for dealings but when it turned out to be that, my supporters decided to go back to PDP. As a leader, my decisions on the choice of party affiliations are taken in response to the desires of those who look up to me for leadership. It is not about me. It is about the electoral futures of my supporters. I never changed political parties without wide consultation with my supporters and without subjecting my decisions to their desires. This is what a leader should do and should be prepared to take responsibility. For the avoidance of doubt however, the APC is my last bus stop. We now have two formidable political parties and Nigerians have a viable choice.
Your critics say you are too desperate to be president. What is your take on that?
I have been asked why I am always seeking to become the president of this country. My passion for governance is that of a man who wants to do more for this nation because there is so much more to be done in fixing Nigeria. This passion continues to grow as long as nobody is really doing the fixing. The nation has been kind to me and I need to give something back. I want to play a leading role in the trans-generational accord that will create the Nigeria we all desire and deserve. I will not give up on Nigeria.
It appears the APC ticket is just there for the picking by General Buhari. How prepared are you for the primary election?
I am really prepared for the primary because this is a game that I have participated in more than the others. In other words, I have been involved in primary election since the early 90s, and that has given me a lot of experience when it comes to primaries whether they are direct or indirect because we have participated in both types of primaries. The perception that the ticket is there for Buhari to take is a mistaken perception because Buhari has never participated in any primaries. In the three elections he contested he was simply given the tickets. He did not go through any primaries. I believe that is not going to be helpful to him in this very case. As of today, among the five of us who are going to participate in the primaries I am the only one who is running around the country. Nobody else is doing that. Nowadays delegates have become more enlightened than before. Most of them are very educated and most of them want to engage their candidates in discussions on what is it they have for them, for the electorate and for party. If they have not seen you, not to talk of interacting with you, how would they vote for you?
Secondly, this is not a party that is dominated by the influence of governors. In other words, the governors trying to force delegates to vote even against their own conscience like it happens in the PDP. This is a party that wants to bring about change. And that really wants to allow people to make choices based on their own convictions. So I have seen in a few states where we have governors; where I was very well received, and I had access to all the delegates, to talk to them, interact with them, and also to listen to all their own problems, and I like it and enjoyed it because you get to know quite a lot of things. You think you know all the problems, but when get down the bottom-line and then you begin to listen to ordinary people who live ordinary lives and you find there is a lot you learn. I think all these experiences give me confidence that I have an edge over the rest of them. I know it is not easy. It is difficult. The physical terrain, going round the country is not good particularly, in terms of the road infrastructure, very bad roads. And you fly all over. I have never seen an election period so short like this one. So, for you to be able to cover the entire country, you need to be flying, sometimes covering two or three states in a day. Thank God most of the states I have covered them. The only thing is that you cannot stay too late because when it is dark most of the airports don’t operate. Only few airports operate in the night in this country.
So we should perish the thought that you are going to withdraw for Buhari in order not to have a rancorous primary?
No, I don’t think so. The issue of withdrawal at this moment is not on the table because as candidates we have not met; let’s say the five of us. Before you talk of withdrawal, before you talk of consensus, the candidates must meet as a group. And when they meet as a group all of them must submit to a consensus process. They must also agree what is going to be the mode of the consensus process. How are we going to get a candidate to emerge? So there has to be process, there has to be willingness of all the parties. At the moment, none. We have not even met; five of us, not to talk of agreeing to a consensus option. I would like to say, perhaps, we have passed the consensus option, because this is an option that did not go through the national working committee, did not go through the NEC. So, I think if it did go through all these statutory structures then there is as very slim chance, unless out of the willingness of five us we decide to sit down and produce a process that will throw up a consensus candidate.
If you don’t obtain the ticket, will you be willing to throw your support behind any APC presidential candidate?
I think I have proved that I am a pragmatic politician. Recall that in 2010 when I failed to get the PDP ticket against President Jonathan, I and others went to try to bring about an electoral alliance between the CPC and ACN. And even when Buhari eventually disappointed a group of us, myself, General Babangida, General Aliyu Gusau and Mallam Adamu Ciroma, I still went out of my way to support Buhari even in CPC. So for me it is not a big deal. I think I’m a pragmatic politician and I don’t know of others. What I know is that we have an understanding to support one another. I don’t know of the rest, but I can say of myself, I can support anyone that emerges.
Some analysts believe Jonathan holds the advantage going into the 2015 elections, going by the number of states controlled by the PDP, the incumbency factor and the teething problems APC is battling with. Do you agree?
I disagree. If all institutions operate and stay with their mandate, incumbency becomes irrelevant. If the institutions are misguided, the courts are there for restitution. But on the field, the APC has the momentum and Nigerians are yearning for a change and they are willing to defend their votes as demonstrated by the election in Osun State. We count on your constituency the press, the civil society and our development partners to contribute their quota in ensuring that the voice and the votes of Nigerians count in the 2015 election. That done, the victory of APC is assured.
What wrong impression do people have about you that you would love to correct if only you could?
It would definitely be the perception that I corruptly enriched myself during my tenure as Vice President. This is especially because I’m the most investigated politician in Nigeria’s history. At the height of my rift with my former boss, several investigations were ordered against me, yet none came up with anything. Long before politics, I was a successful businessman. I first declared my assets in 1993, I was a multimillionaire in dollars. My company, NICOTES was already the top oil services company in Nigeria far back as then. I was not a poor person because I worked hard and took risks. I had enough money to buy as many pairs of shoes as I wanted. In 1998, I helped register the PDP. I spent over N500m getting the party sorted out. I rented the party secretariat and later bought it for the party. I was already a co-founder of one of the most profitable companies in Nigeria in 1999. I was never accused of corruption before my disagreement with my boss.
I remember when the American Congressman Jefferson came to meet me about a fibre project he was promoting on behalf of US companies. I sent it to my technical people, who told me it wasn’t feasible. I told him so and he left. When I travelled to the US later in the year, he came with a lady to meet with me. He later asked the lady to leave, upon which he presented the same file he brought to Abuja. I quickly told him “look, this thing will not work”. He left. Unknown to me, he had collected money from people and said he will ‘persuade’ me to approve contracts in Nigeria. He had collected about $100,000 from people. When the FBI arrested him, He was charged for fraud and Conspiracy to bribe a foreign official. They searched his house and found $90,000 in his fridge. He had spent $10,000 out of it. He was found guilty of fraud and jailed. The Charge of bribery was dropped because he was found to have lied about that. Yet, I hear people link my name to Jefferson. It’s annoying sometimes. Why would I take $10,000 bribe from anyone, when my shares in my companies were worth hundreds of millions of dollars?
The then DG of BPE, Nasir El-Rufai went under oath at the National Assembly to testify that I had never made any requests or acquired anything during his tenure at the BPE. Yet, after my disagreements with my boss, he went and wrote a book that I was corrupt. I remember Nuhu Ribadu coming to my home to apologise because he was running for president. I asked him: “Nuhu, I forgive everyone, and I forgive you, but will you go back to the public and apologise about all the lies you told about me?” He was then concerned about his reputation. Of course I was wondering if he had cared about my own reputation when he was bearing false witness against me and illegally locking my friends up trying to force them to generate evidence of corruption against me.
Some people said that I am wanted in the US. I am glad that United States of America is an open society. They keep records and sometimes keep them too well. The list of every person currently banned from the United States is online. It is called the DSN LIST. But I’m glad I did right for my country. I effectively midwifed the birth of EFCC. That was my contribution to helping improve transparency in Nigeria. However, EFCC was bastardised and was used as a tool of persecution and maligning political opponents. This is why I am proposing major changes in the structure of anti-corruption agencies in my policy document.
How did people come to term you as corrupt then?
Honestly I also think people are not being fair to us, particularly when I was in office when they started labeling me as corrupt. Why is it that in the first four years nobody labelled me as corrupt? It was only when I started having disagreement with my boss (Obasanjo) that the issue of corruption came. And when the issue of corruption came, of all the investigative panels when was it that I was indicted by the panels? So, it has a political undertone. It is always easy to malign people. There was nothing that we have not explained to the best of our ability in this country, whether in the print media or electronic media. People have hung on to it because they believe they can use it to my disadvantage. Particularly, there are people who believe that maybe if I get there I won’t forgive them for using all these things against me. You can’t sit down to start dealing with personal issues when you have grave national issues to deal with if you find yourself in government. Of course, there may be small minds, but I don’t have such kind of mind to take on people personally or individually because of the fact that I was accused at one time or the other.
One of your supporters, in trying to defend you, said you were vice president for eight years and Obasanjo was petroleum minister for six to seven years and the VP does not have the power to approve contracts or control money.
I can tell you better about this argument. In fact, I am very angry. Not only that we had no minister of petroleum in six or seven years, but the oil and gas sector is the important revenue earner for this country for decades now. I don’t know what happened in other governments before us, but in our government the oil and gas sector was never transparent. Every contract was brought to council of ministers for deliberation and approval, but not anything from the oil and gas sector. The president was the minister of oil, so it was between him and the group managing director of NNPC. No minister will ever tell you he knows anything about oil and gas. And the same thing is happening today. Yes, there is a minister of petroleum but they don’t bring anything to the council of ministers on oil and gas. There is absolutely no transparency. And this is something I have vowed to correct. There is no way you can have the most important aspect of your economy and it is shrouded in secrecy. Complete and total secrecy. Nobody knows what contract is given to whom. Nobody knows who is getting those contracts, at what price, nobody knows how much is money comes in. Honestly it is unbelievable.
So, if the minister of petroleum comes out to say this is all what I get, nobody challenges her, because nobody has any other evidence to challenge her. Maybe Nigerians don’t know this is a sector that there is no transparency. We attempted to do it once before. We called for tenders. After that first exercise, subsequent exercises nobody knew who was lifting crude and at what price and what came and what did not. The only thing during budget time they will tell you this is what is earned. How it is earned, you did not know. So there is still complete secrecy in that sector. There is no transparency at all. Nothing will stop me from not bringing it out in the open. You know what happened after eight years, we were given memos that the president approved between himself and the group managing director of NNPC for ratification in the council. I was the only guy who raised his hand and said I want it to be recorded that I was not going to ratify it.
So the way it is structured, you are saying the VP is not in charge of money?
No. the VP is never in charge of money. Let me tell you the power of the VP. When we came in, we said the power of the minister to give contracts was N50 million, that is also applicable to VP; even if you are giving contracts in your own office… because that is the only place you can give contracts. And most ministers if there is half a billion contract, they break it into N50 million in many places and make sure it does not come to council. As a vice-president you only do so within your own small office. The issue of me giving contracts is not there. The second part of my tenure as vice-president I was using my own money to run my office because the president removed all the money from my office, even money to buy paper. Until I finished and left I was using my own money to run my office. As VP you don’t have that capital vote like ministers. So, there is no point of giving contracts to myself. The point is I came into government wealthy, and people say how did I get my money, but they forgot when I was paying for everything, paying for the secretariat, the printing of membership cards because we were just forming the party, and nobody was bringing money on the table. I was using my own money.
There is this belief among a section of the public that you are not free to enter the United States on the basis of a perception of corruption. We are wondering: when last did you visit the US?
The last I visited the US was after I left office. And when I went to see my family there, and from that visit my family relocated from the US. I was to visit the US last year, because I had the visa to go. I was on my way, and then they said I had a wrong visa because I was given a diplomatic visa instead of a normal visa. And that I should come and exchange the diplomatic visa with a normal visa. Unfortunately, the time was very much against me, because the way I planned it, because I was to go to the US just over night and then after attending the function there make a u-turn to Spain because I had another programme in Spain. So I decided to forgo the US event, and flew straight to Spain. If somebody says I cannot go to US, everything about the US is public. There is a site you can access and see those that are banned from visiting the US are. My name is not there. You can access the site and see whether my name is there. Of course I was going to visit my family before, but they are no longer located there. They relocated first of all to the UAE where she took up a professorship at the American University there, then later UK and then later here. She just passed her bar exams. In fact, they live here.
We understand you are very angry with America because of the search of your house…
That is a long case. It was not my house. It was my wife’s house. So diplomatically, you cannot say it was covered under diplomatic immunity. So the fact that I was staying with my wife who is also an American does not exempt our house being searched if there were grounds for that. And I believe they went to the courts to obtain the necessary documents. I don’t think they would have breached any diplomatic protocol to have searched the house. I am not angry. What for? What did they discover anyway? Nothing. They thought they were going to find huge sums of money Jefferson collected from the lady. They didn’t find the money there. Eventually they found the money in his own house, in his own fridge. In fact, I think there is too much politics in it. Jefferson faced several charges. Of all the charges, the only one he was discharged and acquitted was bribing a foreign national. That was relating to me. That was the only charge he was discharged and acquitted. All the other charges he was convicted. I see it more as political blackmail rather than actually based on facts.
SOURCE: http://www.thecable.ng/atiku-step-buhari-well
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